Dialogue with Zhang Junbin, CEO of Yunjing: Understand human nature and bid farewell to naivete

Author | Huang Nan

Editor | Yuan Silai

At the age of 36, Zhang Junbin, the CEO of Yunjing, realized that he could no longer just be a gentle person.

He has made some decisions that offended people. But more often, Zhang Junbin is not good at speaking harshly, so some people privately say that he is a bit indecisive. "People within the company say that if Brother Bin's evaluation of you is 'not bad', it means what you've done is actually very poor," he joked.

In the past few years, this character trait didn't expose major flaws. Because Zhang Junbin spent more time on products and kept a certain distance from trivial and complex affairs. He loves what he does and has indeed found a pure corner to immerse himself in.

However, a product manager is ultimately not a CEO. A successful leader can delegate power but cannot lose control of the company and will make decisive decisions at critical moments. "I used to be too fond of making products and too gentle, only doing what I liked. I was not a qualified CEO," Zhang Junbin said.

During the years when he was buried in product development, problems within Yunjing began to accumulate. If you were inside Yunjing, you would see internal strife among departments, frequent changes of contact persons, and the successive departure of old employees. These things seem scattered, but they ultimately point to the same reason: no one can unite the company from top to bottom.

Finally, the root cause was laid in front of Zhang Junbin. Besides being shocked and angry, he clearly realized that people's hearts don't always follow kindness. He began to reflect on his absence. "If you say yes to everything, you're actually harming everyone and the company," he said.

Since this year, he has stepped out of his comfort zone and got involved in the front - line work. He began to reorganize the marketing and R & D departments as a CEO. In a sense, this is the most unfamiliar and unavoidable lesson in his ten - year entrepreneurial journey: understanding people, judging people, and making decisions about people when necessary.

Now, Zhang Junbin is less anxious because the business has shown obvious improvement. For example, in the overseas market, the revenue in the first four months of 2026 increased by nearly 50% year - on - year.

The biggest impact on Zhang Junbin is not the business itself. After ten years of entrepreneurship, he is truly looking into the abyss of human nature for the first time. For example, how do you make a choice when some people with good intentions do bad things for various legitimate reasons? And how do you face them?

In real life, there is no absolute hatred or absolute understanding. People will constantly wander in the gray area. When we asked: Do you have any other understanding of human nature now? He was silent for a long time. "I now understand a saying, Filial piety is the first of all virtues, judge by the heart rather than the deed; Lust is the root of all evils, judge by the deed rather than the heart." He finally replied.

Zhang Junbin has never been a cold - blooded person. Many people describe him as decent. However, in the cruel business competition, a CEO doesn't have to become a "jerk", but must be a "tough guy". "A kind - hearted person cannot lead an army" is a lesson that Zhang Junbin needs to adapt to and learn.

We had a three - hour conversation with Zhang Junbin about how he grew from a product founder to a mature entrepreneur. He is wading through this dark river alone and still loves life after recognizing the truth of life.

The following is the transcript of the conversation between Yingke and Zhang Junbin, with the content edited:

Source of fear: The scariest thing is not a low score, but having no way out

Yingke: You've rarely appeared in the public eye in the past period. Yunjing also didn't participate in this year's AWE. What was going on inside the company?

Zhang Junbin: We were busy with the marketing reform. The reason we didn't go to AWE was also the result of our internal review.

When going to any exhibition, you need to be clear about the purpose. Otherwise, it's just a waste of money, and exhibitions also consume a lot of the team's energy. Dozens of people spend months on decoration and site selection, which has low value.

I think there are two purposes for participating in an exhibition: one is that a brand enters a brand - new market and needs to contact media and channel resources intensively; the other is that a revolutionary product or technology is launched, and it needs to concentrate traffic more efficiently to amplify the voice.

For Yunjing at this stage, we hope to focus our resources and energy on in - depth local operations. This is a matter of value choice.

Yingke: After you started managing the marketing department, what changes have occurred in your work?

Zhang Junbin: I used to attach great importance to products and spent most of my energy on product development and R & D. When I first took over in September last year, I spent almost all my time on marketing.

Recently, there has been an adjustment. Roughly, I spend 30% of my energy on marketing, 30% on the overall group operation, and 30% on products. The reason is that after the marketing department has taken on a new organizational look, aligning the front - end and back - end requires a group operation approach.

Yunjing's 2025 press conference roadshow, Provence, France (Source/Enterprise)

Yingke: What made you realize that marketing is important? Was it because the previous conversion results didn't meet expectations?

Zhang Junbin: I really didn't understand marketing before. In my mind, there were only three ways for marketing: either lower the price, or invest more money in advertising, or the product was not good. I also seriously reflected on whether there was really a problem with the product. Later, I gradually realized that the problem was with marketing. Although I still can't say I understand it very well, at least I know I can't rely on those three old methods anymore.

You can clearly feel something is wrong from a few small things. For example, when calculating whether a marketing action is profitable, the internal team doesn't even have a unified standard, which is a problem in itself. One is called the "sales and operation standard": as long as the goods are pushed to the agents, it is considered sold, and the sales are completed, and the book profit naturally looks good; the other is called the "sales standard": only when the user actually pays and receives the goods can it be considered a real transaction. According to the sales and operation standard, the figures look good, but the goods may still be stuck in the channels, and the turnover efficiency is very low. So from the perspective of real operating efficiency, the sales and operation standard cannot be used to measure the monthly profit.

Then there is the expense amortization rule. For example, for a single large - scale marketing expense, should it be fully recorded in the current month, amortized quarterly, or amortized annually? If the standards are not unified, the consequence is that a certain month suddenly bears the expenses of the previous several months, and the profit of that month will suddenly decline, but the marketing activities corresponding to this money are not in that month.

I didn't manage marketing before. It's not difficult to find many problems once you look at these things from the first - principles perspective.

I used to think that the relationship between product and marketing was an additive logic "product + marketing". As long as the product was good enough, the results wouldn't be too bad.

Now I understand that their relationship is actually a multiplicative logic "product × marketing". No matter how good the product is, if the shortcoming in marketing is not made up, a good product will miss a good opportunity.

Yingke: Then why didn't you find and solve these problems before?

Zhang Junbin: I was too indulged in making products before. This essentially stems from my immaturity. I was not a qualified CEO and only did what I was good at. It was not until too many abnormal things appeared that I had to spend more energy on learning and changing.

In the past two years, government subsidies brought incremental revenue and profits, and development could cover up many problems. After the government subsidies withdrew, the internal problems of the organization became more prominent, which triggered our determination to reform.

Yingke: Is there no other solution besides managing it personally? It's not a long - term solution to handle every link by yourself. A mature state for a CEO should be to let the company run with the help of systems and do top - level control.

Zhang Junbin: It depends on how fast you want the reform to be. The Founder Mode is the fastest. Moreover, after some core personnel changes, if the founder doesn't step forward, the team will lose morale. This is not only a business reform but also an organizational reform. You need to send positive signals on the front line to encourage everyone to move forward.

Yingke: How fast do you hope it to be?

Zhang Junbin: It took about half a year for the domestic reform to basically resume year - on - year growth. I didn't understand before why the offline return rate was much lower than the online one, but the business still couldn't make money. After taking over, we have now achieved a turnaround. In the first four months of this year, compared with the same period in 2025 when there were government subsidies, the company's revenue and gross profit margin increased while the marketing expenses decreased. This is the result of the reform and adjustment.

Yingke: The difference between being driven by fear and being driven by love is quite large. When you first took over the marketing department, what was the main source of your fear?

Zhang Junbin: This fear came from the unknown, from not understanding marketing.

But the company pushed you to that position, and you had to step out of your comfort zone and reform as quickly as possible.

At that time, I didn't know if I could turn things around. I wasn't worried that the business was only at a level of 40 or 50 points. I was worried that after getting involved, I would find that all the work had been done to 85 points and the efficiency had reached the limit, but there was still no improvement. Then there would be no way out.

As it turned out, there was a lot of room for improvement, and the sense of fear was much less. It's relatively easy to improve from a level of 40 or 50 points to 60 points. The facts also proved this. In March and April this year, Yunjing's front - end profit increased, and I was less anxious.

As a CEO, never try to make everyone happy

Yingke: When do you think your personal cognitive growth was the fastest?

Zhang Junbin: In 2024, Yunjing launched a series of actions such as departmental reform, cost reduction, and efficiency improvement. There was quite a lot of internal resistance. At this time, it was necessary to promote things to run smoothly with skills and guide everyone to follow the strategic direction without emotions.

Many decisions, if directly stated, may not be understood or empathized with by the team. My biggest growth at that time was realizing that forcing things through was not feasible. If you can't get everyone to work together with one heart, either some people will just go through the motions, or even worse, they will try to prove that you are wrong.

Once the company's organizational reform lacks unity of purpose between the top and the bottom, the results are often disastrous. If the implementation is off - track, the final effect will be poor, and the decision - makers may even think that the reform direction is wrong. In fact, it's not.

Solving the problem of "unity of purpose" is the key. All key figures must reach a consensus and approval; otherwise, it's highly likely to fail.

Zhang Junbin of Yunjing (Source/Enterprise) 

Yingke: How do you get key figures to agree? Is it by force, punishment, or incentives?

Zhang Junbin: There are many methods, but the core is to clearly explain the bottom - line benefits of this thing to the group. You can't just say "it's good for Yunjing" in general. It needs to be specific and let everyone see the real benefits.

For example, if the return rate drops by one percentage point, the net profit can increase by 0.5 percentage points. Presenting the data will be convincing. If you just say "the return rate is too high and needs to be reduced", the other party may retort: "Our positive review rate is already the highest in the country. Do we still need to reduce it?" Then it will be very difficult for you to push forward.

Yingke: So you still need trustworthy people in key positions to make the CEO's job easier. What kind of people are trustworthy?

Zhang Junbin: I've thought about it and communicated with several top - level operators in the country. Recently, when looking at marketing talents, I think an excellent marketing operator needs to have five abilities.

First, understand finance, be able to read accounts, be sensitive to data standards, and know what data can reflect the real situation. Second, have a deep understanding of their own products, actively use, study, and master them. Third, be able to achieve great results with little money, not just rely on a large budget, but have a knack and unique methods. Fourth, have channel resources and connections to really open up the market. Fifth, be able to lead and manage a team and organize people to work together.

Yingke: How do you find such people and establish a trust relationship with them?

Zhang Junbin: Above these five abilities, the most important thing is motivation, that is, what is the purpose of this person joining the company?

There are usually three types of motivations for marketers: the first is to build a resume, spare no expense to do large - scale projects, take the credit for themselves, and leave the risks to the company; the second is to accumulate resources and use the platform as a springboard; the third is to build a career, truly grow with the company, and regard efficiency and cost as their own business to strive for.

You need to learn to identify. If the motivation is wrong, no matter how capable the person is, it will be a hidden danger. When communicating with them, if a person keeps talking about how much money they spent and how large - scale the campaigns they did in the past, but can't explain why they spent the money and what real conversion and user value it brought, I will be very cautious.

Yingke: But people can change. Is there a way at the institutional level?

Zhang Junbin: I now basically participate in the front - end marketing management meeting every week. I used to check once every one or two months, but now I check every week. Whether it's domestic or overseas, I focus on four things: investment efficiency, scale, revenue, and profit. This is essentially a system control. It's not just a cursory look but a systematic monitoring rhythm formed through high - frequency management reviews.

But the system only treats the symptoms, not the root cause. If a person's motivation changes, after the system monitoring detects an abnormality, you have to replace them. This is no longer a matter of ability but a matter of character.

I've seen some top - tier companies with very mature processes and systems still fail. The system can filter out some opportunists, but there are blind spots in the system, especially in key positions.

The system is the bottom line, and the judgment of people is the ceiling. These things can't be seen from KPIs or run out by the system.

Yingke: Can you accept mistakes?

Zhang Junbin: Yes. The reason is that I clearly know that the growth of a founder, especially the comprehensiveness of