Zhang Lijun's Dialogue with Qin Wen: To Determine Whether a Leader Is Worth Following, Just Look at These Three Points.

Recently, many entrepreneurs have been extremely anxious. In an era of complexity and volatility, they can't find certainty and don't know what to do next.

Some young people are about to enter the workplace and are very anxious about the future. They don't know how to start their careers.

Coincidentally, some time ago, I had an interview with Qin Wen, a senior business media person and a business interview blogger with millions of followers. We talked about related topics.

Today, I'm sharing the written content with you. I hope it will be helpful to you.

How to choose a boss?

Qin Wen: In this era, what kind of bosses are worth following? What kind of companies can grow big?

Cherry: I've summarized it into three points. First, the boss should have strong beliefs and be willing to create social value. Second, he should have a very clear strategy and not keep taking detours. Third, does he treat employees as tools or as brothers? Many bosses think that they are supporting the whole company and act very domineeringly. I usually tell bosses straightforwardly that they need to control their emotions because employees are not their punching bags. If an employee makes a mistake, you should tell him so, but it doesn't mean you can make fun of his personality. That's unacceptable.

Then, if you distribute the money well, you've solved half of the management problems because employees will be self - motivated. You'll find that bosses who can really grow their companies big always have a lofty vision. This business is not just for themselves. More importantly, they're thinking about how to create social value. How can your vision become stronger? It starts with finding your personal mission.

Qin Wen: Is there any way to find one's own mission?

Cherry: Find something that makes you feel a sense of achievement and that you think is beneficial to others. We call it altruism. For example, we've already helped more than 7,000 companies that are doing well in their niche markets. I'll help as many companies as I can with the strength I have. In this way, you'll feel happy at work every day, and you won't care how big the company can become or how much money you can earn. I'm 48 years old this year, and I'm not afraid of getting old.

Qin Wen: Do bosses also go through different stages? For example, I see many young entrepreneurs around me. In the first stage of their entrepreneurship, their first goal is to make money, to support themselves first. They have a desire for money, want to buy luxury cars and houses, and want their families to live better. In the second stage, some people can make a breakthrough, while others can't.

Cherry: Yes, I think great bosses are chosen by fate. When Jack Ma's company became very big, it wasn't surprising when he said he didn't care about money and had lofty ideals, right? But if you look back to when Alibaba was just founded and the company had less than 100 people, Jack Ma was also saying the same thing. Bosses who can build great companies know they need to survive when starting from scratch, but they never forget their dreams. Most bosses become mediocre along the way. They lose their drive after making some money and start thinking about retiring or making easy money through investments. That's because they didn't have a dream from the very beginning. Our consulting firm works with companies from various industries, but we usually choose clients who are among the top three in their niche markets.

Qin Wen: What if it's the fourth - ranked company?

Cherry: It depends on whether it has potential. I mainly focus on choosing the boss. Choosing the boss is the most important thing because the only ceiling of a company is the boss.

Qin Wen: So, what kind of companies do you usually not provide consulting services for?

Cherry: That's a good question. I can give you a positive example. There was a company that collapsed in 2020, and the whole team was on the verge of falling apart. No one knew how to fix the situation. By chance, one of their senior executives came to listen to my lecture. After that, he asked me if I could help them because they really loved the company. Later, I had a conversation with their newly - elected CEO from 10 p.m. to after 12 a.m., and then I decided to take on the job because for the first time, I saw the real sense of responsibility and foresight of an entrepreneur in a professional manager.

Qin Wen: Did he say anything to you at that time that impressed you deeply?

Cherry: At that time, he was just a professional manager, but he said to me: "I want to save it because I love this company." At that moment, I was deeply touched.

People often ask me: "Cherry, do you always choose big companies for consulting?" No. Over the years, many of the companies I've accompanied have grown from small to large. There are many that have grown from a revenue of one billion to ten billion, and some have exceeded 100 billion. But I mainly focus on choosing the right people, not the industry. I think in any industry, as long as you do a good job, you can succeed.

Qin Wen: What kind of people do you choose?

Cherry: First, I choose bosses with a vision, those with an idealistic spirit. I don't like bosses who only want to make money. Second, he must have an advantage, whether it's in products, technology, or the team. He should have one outstanding ability. Third, I look at whether the boss loves learning very much. Can you imagine? I've met many bosses of top - tech companies who haven't even graduated from college.

Qin Wen: So, is education still important in this era?

Cherry: It's both important and unimportant. What's visible on the surface of an iceberg includes things like appearance, speech, temperament, education, and family background. Are these things useful? Yes, they are like a stepping - stone, but they don't determine whether you can succeed. What determines success? It's the things hidden beneath the iceberg.

What are the things beneath the iceberg? First, is the person of good character? Second, does he have strong learning ability? Third, is he highly resistant to stress? Fourth, is he determined to achieve his goals? Fifth, is he willing to make extraordinary efforts and be extremely diligent? I judge a person's true nature and potential based on these five aspects: values, intelligence, stress resistance, goal - orientation, and diligence. I think these five points are the key factors that determine a person's success, accounting for more than 90%.

How bosses should face anxiety

Qin Wen: Now, I've noticed that many entrepreneurs and bosses are very anxious.

Cherry: The root cause of anxiety is not knowing what the future holds. So, you can spend some time researching the future. If you figure out the future trend and work backwards from the end - goal, you won't be so anxious in the present. Another effective way is to look at the present from the perspective of history. The era of artificial intelligence is coming. During this era transition, just like the impact of the Internet on the real economy and physical stores back then, weren't you also very anxious?

So, I often tell entrepreneurs: In my mind, there are no traditional enterprises, only traditional thinking and cognition. Don't close your doors and resist. Just embrace it.

Do you know the brand Miiow? In 2016, Miiow's revenue was only 160 million. Last year, it reached 17.9 billion, and this year it's expected to reach 30 billion. We also won the "Best Service Provider Award of Miiow" last year. Actually, Miiow used to operate physical chain stores and suffered heavy losses. It moved all its franchised and direct - operated stores online, and that's how the current Miiow came into being. The essence of business is: Wherever your customers are, you should go there. Since your customers have moved from offline to online, why are you still clinging to the old ways?

Qin Wen: Many bosses actually understand this principle. Then why do some companies stick to the old ways while others can make a leap?

Cherry: Because they haven't taken the first step. Let me give you an example: I have a good friend, a boss from Yiwu, who is a "second - generation manager". His father opened an eyebrow pencil factory in Yiwu and later passed the business on to him. In the past two years, the company's business has been impacted by many e - commerce entrepreneurs in Yiwu, so he wants to transform into an e - commerce business. He came to me and said, "Sister, what should I do about this?" I asked him, "Do you really want to do it?" He said, "Yes, I've made up my mind. I have to outperform my father."

I said, "Listen to my three - step plan: First, move the company to Hangzhou." He said, "Sister, my two kids are still in Yiwu and they are very young. I can't not accompany them." I said, "Then you're just pretending to want to do it." Later, he immediately moved to Hangzhou and commuted between Yiwu and Hangzhou every day without a break. Why did I ask him to move to Hangzhou? Because Hangzhou has talented people.

"Second, spend one month quickly integrating into the e - commerce circle, getting familiar with the big shots in the industry, and figuring out how they operate." Later, he spent a month and came back to tell me, "Sister, I'm now on good terms with all the e - commerce bosses." I asked him how he did it. He said, "It's very simple. After their e - commerce live - streaming sessions at night, I took them out for drinks. Young people are very willing to teach their 'brothers'. I invited them for more than twenty days in a row. They thought I was generous and worth making friends with, so they were willing to teach me."

"Third, ask them to recommend a team for you." Later, he assembled a ten - person e - commerce team and sold more than 300 million worth of eyebrow pencils in one year from scratch.

Actually, the road to success isn't crowded. As long as you're really doing the right things and doing them to the extreme with honesty, I think you'll do well in any industry.

Our company pays 140 million in salaries every year. During the pandemic, our finance department asked me if we should cut salaries or reduce the number of employees. I told him that we still had money in the account. First, don't lay off employees, and second, don't cut salaries because there is a family behind each employee. I said that if one day we can't continue, it might be because of my lack of ability. Even if I have to close the company, I won't have any regrets. I lost more than ten million last year. As long as I still have money, I won't do anything to harm the organization.

Second, I keep telling myself that I need to delay gratification. For example, do you want to earn 50 million in three years or in five years? The quality of the company will be different depending on whether it's three, five, or ten years. I'm patient enough to build a company for ten years before making money.

But I believe that after this investment, the compound interest effect will get better and better. Nowadays, in China, few people believe in long - term value, and few people believe in the original intention, mission, and vision. So, it's actually not that difficult to succeed because you don't have many competitors. Few people are willing to spend such a long time and put so much effort into making a good product and investing so much money. They're not willing to do it.

The journey of entrepreneurship

Qin Wen: So, why did you leave Alibaba to start this company ten years ago?

Cherry: After leaving Alibaba, I drove alone to Tibet and spent half a year there. I got bored. When I got to Beijing, Yu (a former colleague) also quit his job. He was the sales leader and business president of Alibaba's B2B division and was regarded as the backbone by Jack Ma.

Qin Wen: What was your net worth at that time?

Cherry: It must have been over 100 million because we were among the first 1,000 employees. He originally wanted me to help him analyze whether he should accept a job offer, but I advised him against it. Then he asked me what I wanted to do. I said I wanted to use my decades of experience to help others. Since I had worked in sales and human resources management, he said that was also what he wanted to do because many entrepreneurs start from the grassroots level, and we had both worked our way up from the bottom. He said we should do consulting and share our experience with others. So, we started running workshops without even thinking about registering a formal company. We rented a residential house for 30,000 yuan and bought some second - hand furniture to start our business.

Qin Wen: You both had financial freedom, whether it was from stocks or cash. Why were you so frugal when starting this business?

Cherry: Because we wanted to experience the feeling of entrepreneurship. Yu had a higher position than me at Alibaba and managed 6,000 people. At that level, he didn't even know how to buy stocks because he had a bunch of assistants to handle things for him. I was afraid he would be out of touch with reality. When he came to Beijing, I came up with a plan. I took him to visit ten clients every day. At that time, traffic in Beijing was much worse than it is now, and we couldn't rely on drivers. So, we took the subway every day. I hoped he could feel the spirit of entrepreneurship.

Later, we summarized why we survived. Why do most senior executives from big companies fail when they start their own businesses? Because they're still doing management, while we were truly starting a business. We put aside our past experience and glory. I visited eight clients every day for six years. You have to focus on the business, find the key problems, and solve them. I think women need to put in at least many times more effort than men to achieve the same level of success in their careers.

Qin Wen: How many times more?

Cherry: I think it's at least ten times more. So, whenever I see a woman in a high - level position in a company, generally speaking, she's much more capable than her male counterparts at the same level.

Qin Wen: What are the major difficulties or problems you often encounter?

Cherry: First, being "love - struck". No matter how successful you are in your career, you always stumble in your relationships. Second, poor emotional management. You can't control your emotions, so it's difficult to make rational decisions. Third, the influence of Confucian culture on women. We always think we can rely on others to succeed. When we're young, we rely on our parents; when we grow up, we rely on our husbands; when we're old, we rely on our children. Do you really have that kind of luck? I once hesitated whether to go home and be a good wife and mother. I went home for a while and found that I was unhappy. This wasn't the life I wanted. I even wanted to tear the house apart because I had so much energy with nowhere to go, and I felt I had no value to society.

For example, when my child was less than three years old, late at night, I asked myself what kind of person I wanted to be and what I was willing to give up and sacrifice for it.

After asking myself countless times, my answer was that I wanted to be a person who could contribute to society and have a successful career. And this priority was higher than being a mother who accompanied her child every day.

Qin Wen: Many people know what choice they want to make deep down in their hearts, but they're always restricted by many worldly things, ideas, or social pressure.

Cherry: Do you want to hear the truth? Such people are cowards. People who can achieve great things are tough - minded. When you can't let go of both A and B, you'd better choose to be an ordinary person who is content with what they have.

I quite agree with what Feng Tang said. He said, A tough - minded person is tough on themselves, not on others. Can you be tough on