When a music festival operator decides to go overseas | Hidden Currents to See the World

Writer | Huang Zhuxi, Ren Qian

Editor | Yu Lili

When "Dark Waves" was continuously focusing on the overseas market, Li Hongjie, the founder of the MTA Tianmo Music Festival, actively reached out to us, wanting to share his story of leading Chinese independent musicians to the North American market.

Li Hongjie, once the chief editor of "Popular Songs," known as the "First Magazine of Chinese Rock," and the former chief editor of the Chinese version of "Rolling Stone" magazine, is also the behind-the-scenes operator of many domestic music festivals - he founded the first Zhangbei Grassland Music Festival in 2009, the Changyang Music Festival in 2010, and the MTA Tianmo Music Festival in 2016.

Now, he is a new player leading Chinese independent musicians on a North American tour. In 2018 and 2019, Li Hongjie led many Chinese musicians to SXSW (South by Southwest) to participate in the "China Night" special performance. This year, with the updated IP "Friends from the East," he helped domestic bands such as Mayuan Shiren and Fazi to land at SXSW.

In late October, the Omnipotent Youth Society band appeared at the Moore Theatre in Seattle, USA, which has a 117-year history and was once the performance venue of American legendary bands such as Nirvana. After that, the Omnipotent Youth Society band performed in 8 places including San Francisco, New York, and Toronto. At the peak, all 3,000 tickets for the entire venue were sold out. Behind the scenes, it was also operated by Li Hongjie's team.

Behind Li Hongjie's exploration is the overall change in the Chinese music festival industry. In the early stage, there was a great explosion of band culture, music festivals and their surrounding industries, followed by a decline due to the epidemic. Later, with the recovery of the performance market, it fell into a new round of involution: it had to face the homogeneous competition of music festivals and the aesthetic fatigue of consumer groups. And this is also the reason why Chinese independent musicians began to find alternative ways and test the waters abroad.

A few days ago, Li Hongjie told us their North American story and carefully calculated the profit and loss in the North American market. Not only that, in the current booming era of AI virtual companionship, he also emphasized that humans still have a real emotional need for face-to-face and eye-to-eye communication. This is the value of the existence of music festivals and the reason why he is still present and going abroad.

"Dark Waves Looking at the World" is a new column of Dark Waves. Over the past three years, we have successively launched a series of globalized content, and currently, we are launching a series of reports more systematically. Latin America and North America are our current research focuses.

The following is the dialogue part:

Standing on the stage where Nirvana once performed

"Dark Waves": Is the reason for going overseas at this point because the domestic music festival market is not prosperous?

Li Hongjie: Actually, the number of music festivals in the past two years is more than in previous years, which is the result of the backlog. But in the second half of the year, you can clearly feel that they are not selling well, and many have been cancelled.

"Dark Waves": Is it because it's too competitive?

Li Hongjie: The lineups of 300 music festivals look the same as 3. If you are a consumer, you wouldn't go to all 300, would you? The product competition has become fierce, and user aesthetic fatigue is also increasing. Entrepreneurs with an advanced consciousness may want to go outside and explore.

"Dark Waves": Why did you choose North America as the first stop instead of Japan, South Korea, or Southeast Asian countries?

Li Hongjie: This is related to the genes of our team. We are also more proficient in North America. Because we went to South by Southwest for investigation and study 10 years ago. In 2018 and 2019, we held the "China Night" show at South by Southwest for two consecutive years. Moreover, except for Asia, North America should be the place with the largest Asian population in the world. In the United States, there were 24 million Asian Americans in 2022.

"Dark Waves": For Chinese independent musicians, will North America be a more challenging battlefield?

Li Hongjie: Compared to Asian countries, North America is definitely more challenging, but if it is successful, the sense of achievement will also be greater. After all, when it comes to rock music, the musicians we listened to when we were young were from the United States and the United Kingdom. Performing in this place is also a novel experience.

For these domestic musicians that I brought to perform, most of the venues are where big-name bands and rock musicians have performed, and they are basically century-old shops. The historical figures hanging on the wall are those they saw and heard in magazines, VCDs or CDs when they were young. The Moore Theatre where the Omnipotent Youth Society band performed in Seattle is the venue where Nirvana performed the most. Nirvana, Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, and Alice in Chains have also performed here. It has a 117-year history. And now, you are standing on the stage where they once performed, and this feeling is very different.

For Chinese independent musicians, North America is still a new incremental market, and few mainland teams have tried it before. Many Japanese and Korean musicians also want to go to North America in their career paths.

"Dark Waves": How many tours have you done in North America so far?

Li Hongjie: About four or five. Last November, we held the "Friends from the East" music festival for two days. At that time, there were Tong Yang, the Omnipotent Youth Society, Wu Tiao Ren, and the Landlord's Cat, etc. Before and after the music festival, we held the North American tours of Tong Yang, Wu Tiao Ren, and the Landlord's Cat. During this year's South by Southwest, we had Mayuan Shiren and Fazi, and we just completed the tour of the Omnipotent Youth Society in November.

"Dark Waves": Based on what criteria are bands like the Omnipotent Youth Society selected for going overseas?

Li Hongjie: Among the current Chinese rock bands, the Omnipotent Youth Society is definitely one of the best. Bands like the Omnipotent Youth Society and Tong Yang have very solid and vital works, and their own history is more than 20 years. This is the basis for them to perform in North America. If they are only popular in China and can hardly come up with three works, it will be very difficult.

"Dark Waves": How is the live effect?

Li Hongjie: Many audiences were singing along with tears in their eyes at the scene. For these compatriots who are far away in a foreign country, having musicians from their own motherland singing familiar works is a kind of spiritual comfort, and I think it is very worthwhile.

"Dark Waves": What are the decisive factors for the box office?

Li Hongjie: My deeper experience is that it has a certain relationship with whether a musician is popular on a certain platform recently. But the decisive factor for the box office is whether he has popular works, which is the basic. Without this, you have to be cautious when doing a tour.

At any stage, making money is important

"Dark Waves": Have you made money in the North American market?

Li Hongjie: Basically, it's a break-even.

"Dark Waves": How to calculate the big account?

Li Hongjie: It is to multiply the ticket price by the ticket inventory, subtract the cost of a team, and then there is a theoretical profit and loss and gross income. But we haven't subtracted taxes, operating costs, etc. We can only roughly calculate the gross income and the cost of the artist to see if the gap is large. If there is space, it can basically be done. If after subtracting, it is just a break-even, it is better not to do it. Because there are many unexpected costs in the entire execution process. If you are not careful, you will lose money.

"Dark Waves": What are the fluctuating factors in the middle?

Li Hongjie: For example, for a round-trip air ticket to and from North America, it costs more than 10,000 to nearly 20,000 yuan per person. Some bands keep the minimum number of personnel, so the travel cost will be lower. Saving is your profit. Of course, the situation of each band is different. Even if the cooperation methods are similar, the break-even line and profit margin of a single project are also different, and there are differences.

"Dark Waves": So it is difficult to make a lot of money.

Li Hongjie: It should be impossible to make a lot of money. For people who have been in the performance industry for a long time, they will not pursue huge profits for individual projects, but rather pursue sustainability and stability. If it is a large-scale artist, the corresponding requirements will also be more, whether it is expenses or configuration, the cost will increase. It is considered lucky if it can break even or even make a slight loss. In fact, only about 10% of the performances can be sold out.

In the current environment, we must tighten our belts, be meticulous in our calculations, and ensure our ability to withstand impacts. In addition, this account must be calculated in the early stage. The market acceptance, the audience base, which cities are more friendly to this kind of music, etc., all need to be studied in depth in the early stage.

"Dark Waves": What is the approximate time cost for preparing a tour?

Li Hongjie: It took one year from the beginning of the discussion to the realization of the Omnipotent Youth Society tour. The "Friends from the East" music festival was also prepared for one year.

"Dark Waves": How large is your team in North America? What are the major differences between doing a tour overseas and in China?

Li Hongjie: The core members are mainly 10 people, working in bilingual shifts 24 hours a day. The main differences are in cognitive habits and working methods. For example, in China, when we talk about distance, we say kilometers, but here we say miles, and we have to convert it every time. The working method is a similar logic. Even if the same thing is expressed in different forms and terms, it needs to be coordinated, transformed, and communicated to make both sides understand each other's demands.

"Dark Waves": What are the main differences in working methods?

Li Hongjie: For example, when you arrive at the venue and it involves production and construction, the union of the venue will use their designated personnel. We might be able to finish this job in one hour, but the people designated by the union cannot complete it within the time you imagine. They have various safety regulations, such as having to rest after working for a certain period of time, and having to be paid overtime after 8 hours, and the overtime pay is very expensive. You say that sometimes we are afraid of delaying things and ask if it is okay to come earlier? They will say that it is okay to come earlier, but coming earlier also counts as overtime.

What to do? We still have to do it. It's just that when we encounter a similar situation again, we know that their working methods are different from ours. We can make improvements in production and configuration. However, these are all valuable experiences, just consider it as paying tuition fees.

"Dark Waves": So at this stage, making money is not the most important thing?

Li Hongjie: At any stage, making money is important. To do any thing and want to operate continuously, you must consider the profit and loss. If you keep ignoring the cost and not calculating the accounts, this thing cannot last for too long.

"Dark Waves": Compared to the domestic market, how much incremental space is there for overseas tours?

Li Hongjie: In fact, whether in China or the United States, the big logic is the same. Because the income channels and cost structures are the same. The size of the profit space still depends on the team's refined operation ability.

Performing for compatriots in North America is also of great significance

"Dark Waves": Judging from the scene, is the acceptance of these bands in North America high?

Li Hongjie: 90% are still overseas Chinese. But it also depends on the city. For example, Austin has South by Southwest every year, so the locals are also interested in watching the performances of non-English musicians. In some other cities, musicians who perform in English and Spanish are more welcome.

"Dark Waves": The influence is still in the Chinese community. Will this shake your determination to do this?

Li Hongjie: In fact, for musicians, they are not entangled. Making music is not "making" a song, but "creating" a song. Before creating, do you first think about who will listen to my song? No. Musicians write songs based on their feelings. After the creation, can you control who is willing to listen? You can't. Similarly, when doing a performance, can you control who will watch your performance? You can't either.

There is no need to be entangled in this matter. Some people always say that what is the significance of performing for our compatriots in North America. I say this matter is of great significance.

"Dark Waves": Where is its significance?

Li Hongjie: From my perspective, every song has its own story. After its birth, its fate is no longer under your control. When you go to a live performance, how can you demand who will come to watch your performance? Why does it have to be foreigners who listen to this song when you go to the United States?

I don't think it's necessary. As long as someone spends money to buy a ticket to watch your performance, it has already proved that your music is valuable. This is enough. There is no need to screen who buys it. It doesn't make much sense to be stubborn about this.

"Dark Waves": Are there other people doing similar things?

Li Hongjie: In terms of systematic and IP-based operations, apart from us, it should be Modern Sky. Modern Sky is a benchmark and an example in our industry. They previously held music festivals in New York and Los Angeles, but then they stopped.

"Dark Waves": Why did they stop?

Li Hongjie: It may be due to strategic considerations. I saw that Lao Shen also said recently that he wants to restart overseas business. This is also the natural law of market development. For various industries, you should also have a sense. In the past two years, I think everyone has a conscious awareness of going overseas. In addition to the basic domestic market in China, they are all expanding the international market. For example, Huawei started going overseas very early, and for a long time, its overseas revenue was larger than its domestic revenue. If you regard the whole world as your market, it is like a vast ocean of stars.

"Dark Waves": But Huawei is more focused on technology and manufacturing going overseas.

Li Hongjie: The underlying logic is actually the same. Any company either sells products or provides services. Music is also a product for us. When users come, we give them an experience, and you are also providing a service, so it is actually the same.

"Dark Waves": From another perspective, it is also an appropriate time for Chinese bands to go overseas.

Li Hongjie: This is called timing. This thing should not be forced, but should be done naturally. If you can do it, do it. If you can't, don't be anxious. In 2019, Sunset Rollercoaster performed in small venues - 200-person venues, with a ticket price of $20, and they toured round after round. It was only later that they had a thousand-person venue.

10 years ago, we definitely couldn't do it. Chinese users haven't been well educated, American resources haven't been linked up, and the ability radius hasn't been ready. Now we can do "Friends from the East" naturally. But now it can only be regarded as just the beginning. Whether it is the Zhangbei Grassland Music Festival or the MTA Tianmo Music Festival, we plan for at least 10 years.

"Dark Waves": Will the current turbulent world situation bring concerns to your music going overseas?

Li Hongjie: We use music to cross boundaries. Music has no borders. Whether it is Easterners or Westerners, many people like to listen to John Lennon's "Imagine". It means that no matter what ideas and opinions people have, how inconsistent they are, they